Christ’s love for the church is different than his love for the word.
God has a general love for the world. It’s why every person has the opportunity to repent and believe. It’s why God’s air is in all of our lungs.
But God has a special love for his church. He gave his life for her and committed to working all things for her good.
Pastor Coulter Conner joins us to discuss what the Bible teaches about the love of God and what it means for us.
This will help us gain a deeper appreciation for God’s grace to us. And we will see how this doctrine has major implications for many other doctrines.
Check out the book None Greater: The Undomesticated Attributes of God by Matthew Barrett that was mentioned in the episode.
Pastor Coulter Conner is a pastor at Christ’s Church of Labette County in Kansas, and he is currently pursuing a Ph.D. in New Testament Studies from Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.
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Note: This is an automatic transcription with limited accuracy.
Welcome to the Brooks podcast, a podcast made for the Church hosted by a justified center and frequent guests. Please welcome your host books. subcheck welcome back to the Brooks podcast, my friends. Today we are joined by Paster Cultur Connor I aske Ho ejoin is you guys know? We gain a lot from some people who are not just sitting in talking about theology, but are on the ground, doing ministry and impacting souls. I have a really high respect for pastors, who are who are really shepherding the people of God and away the New Testament commands, and so you know, pastor culture is a really respectable man he’s currently pursuing his PhD and in New Testament Studies from midwestern seminary the school I go to and he’s a pastor at Christ, Church of Labett County and Kansas and yeah. I’m really excited to have him on so thank you so much for being wilike to join festi culture, Hey muks, thanks for having me man thanks for having me excited to se, it’s my pleasure. So today we’re actually talking about a pretty. I don’t know if you consider a controversial topic, we’re going to be discussing whether or not God loves everyone, and if he does, how God, if God loves everyone the same, and you might be thinking. Oh, my goodness, this is such a controversial thing. It’s just it’s just like you guys to be. You know talking about God. You know not loving everyone the same or something along those lines, but we’re talking about this, because it has a lot of implications for the way that we believe and God’s God’s love for his church is such an important, theological concept, and so we’re not we’re not coming out it to say I don’t know to beat to be negative, but you know to encourage the church, and so I know, pastor. Paster culter has a heard for that. So I think the position we’re going to take. Do you want to just introduce kind of what what we believe and then we’ll go from the CONV conversation from there yeah yeah. Absolutely so you know you ask Ta Question: Does God Love Everyone? And if so, does God love everyone the same, and I think both of those questions are are good inappropriate to think about into really search the scriptures for and so yeah you and I share the position that God does love everyone. He has a loving disposition towards all of his creation, but we see in scripture that God has a special or a particular type of love for for his people, for those who have placed their faith in allegiance to Jesus Christ. And so that’s that’s how we see the scriptures kind of unfolding throughout the old and New Testament. That’s awesome, and I know that you’ve had a journey kind of coming to that perspective. Coming to that view, and what was that, where did you come from and how did you end up believing what you do about the love of God yeah excellent question, so I grew up and and anministered ind, the what’s known as the restoration movement and it’s churches that Christian Churches, Bible, centered churches, but they hold more. Typically, restoration movement guys hold more of a Weslean type of theology, and so I just grew up in that kind of theological camp did my Undergrad at a Weslean school. But I did my graduate work at Campbellsville University, which is a Baptist School in Kentucky and then did some more graduate and then doing my postgraduate PhD work at Midwestern Bab. You know very baptost school and so, as I started to engage in different people theology and started to engage with different scholars work. I came across a guy. A famous babtist cholared by man named Dr Tom Schriner, who is you know, he’s been teaching at southern baptistlogical seminary and Louiville for for decades, and I started the most one of the most like respectable scholars on the new test. Yeah he andhe’s yeah. He is, you know the I would say, he’s the best he’s regarded as one of the best avangelical new testment scholar and so started to really read and engage Dr Schriner in the book of Romans and engage him in his New Testament theology and just look at how he put together and unpacked the scriptures, and it really just started to just starte, to trace kind of his lines of thinking and his arguments and how he presented the Scriptures and then- and I start to read other other people’s takes on shriner and other people argument. Arguments against him and honestly came to kind of came into wanting to find people to disprove what shriner was trying to say and, as I gave fair weight to all the arguments was like well. These people are arguing against him, but they’re, not their arguments aren’t sound they’re, not logical, they’re, not steeped in scripture, Whith shriners. Just always that way, and so it was like wow I mean this is this is making sense. This is he’s unpacking this and folding the story of scripture and the the thought process of mainly, you know, he’s a very pauline type scholar, and so it just it convinced me and I just started to see it kind of everywhere in scriptures like once, you see it, you can’t unsee it type of thing and yeah, it’s kind of just a journey over about a three year process where I started just to see what what shriner was tracing through out all the New Testament yeah. That’s really great, I think, as we move into like discussing, why you know what the Scripture say about this topic, one thing that I think I’ve noticed and you’re what you’re saying you’ve noticed in Dr Scheiners, what he’s pointed out the new testaments really steeped and talking about God’s grace even to the whole world, I mean you think that you know Matthew. Five God causes is reign to fall, adjust in the unjust and and the fact that people you know, have the opportunity, God calls Almand everywhere to repent and believe. However, I know you’ve pointed this out to me as we ere talking the other day. There is the New Testament is steeped in such deeply loving different language about the church and- and so I just want to ask what have you noticed, what has brought you from the scriptures to believe that God has a particular love for the church, yeah excellent question- I mean the for me, it’s when you start to really do you know the exo Jesus of Scripture and you start to really pay attention, and I would credit you know Dr Shiner for this, but also, I think you know, and we’ve been you’ve talked. I’ve talked to you about this, this person before, but Piper John Piper, I mean I love and- and I don’t agree with Pyperon everything, but I love how he really focuses in ants to look at the very words of scripture themselves, the adjetives, the way that God’s people are described, the way that God’s actions and his demonstrations are really geared towards his beloved people, and you just see a difference right, there’s just a difference in the language that Paul uses the language that Peter Uses. There is a difference in the words that they use to describe to God, people verse the words that they use to describe the world, and I think that’s really important. You know you think about like how the words that I use when I talk about my wife, whom I dearly love, are different than the words I use to talk about. You know a person that interact with at Walmart and or you know, there’s a lot of different examples that you could give there, but the words that people use in everyday life often give us clues. They give us snap shots to a person’s disposition or person’s feelings or a person’s love towards them, and I think the New Testament is really littered with those and yeah, and I think that that’s important we need to, as readers pay careful attention to the words that that scripture uses describe God’s people and the way that Paul and Peter and all the other off authors, Buve just been studying and reading tons of first Peter Lately, and so I’m real Peter just always comes to my mind, but just the words that they use to describe and really help gods. People be encouraged and take heart, they’re different they’re, just different words. I think that’s important for us to remember yeah. I just you know on the topic of First Peter was talking with my friend the other day about how to me. First Peter has like talks about everything like it’s: It’s not a giant book. It’s not a giant epistle. I wouldn’t say it’s small either, but I feel like he goes into escatology. He goes into like church life and doctrine like he just hits so many areas. It’s amazing. I think one thing also super important to talk about when we’re talking about whether or not God loves everyone is what does love meanbecause there? I feel like we have a foundational understanding of love and that some people might not be coming to the conversation with, and so when we say you know, God loves the church in a particular way. If you don’t understand what what the love of God means, you may take it to mean something that we’re not saying, and so it’s just important to define our terms when talking about that. I’ve heard a definition of love that it is God’s goodness and action. It’s God’s like benevolence toward toward humanity, anin his actions ind. What he does. Would you say that’s accurate o? How would you add or take away from that yeah? So it’s so here here is a proble, here’s something providential. You asked me to come on this podcast a couple weeks ago and we were going to. We were going to record it last week and then you had some finals and stuff. They had to get done, and so we postponed it one week. So this week, for this Sunday at Church, is advent, we’re going through advent and it’s love, and so I’m preaching on God’s Love At O. First John Four, seven through ten and so I’ve just been reading and studying and not really an anticipation with the PODCAST, although a little bit but really just in anticipation to preach a gods people. But here is what I wrote down as studying: First Jon for seven through ten, I wrote down that Biblical love is a self sacrificing action done for the benefit of others yeah, and so that’s really what I see in in First John, seven or first on four seven thoug ten. You know this idea of you know: God reveals his love in us or to us through the sending his only begotten Son, that we might have life through him, the Nego. He goes on and Bursttin to talk about how you know it’s not that we love God, but that he he loved us and again, you know he says, sent his son as a atoning sacrifice for our sin. So Yeah I love. I like your definition. I think it’s God’s action towards or his benevolence towards us, his goodness yeah treminds me of John Fifteen thirteen Jesus says you know. No Man has a greater love than this that he laid down his life for his friends and, if you think about the Senate, like just the senistructure there laying down your life Hor, your friends is love. You could think it’s an act of love, but it also by the way Jesus talks about it is love and itself Yeah and so ce love is an action, and it’s just it’s very encouraging to my heart, because if we’re talking about t e God’s particular love for his church, you just see God, God really deeply has has blessed us. You know I vusion to one with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places and if greater love knows no thot was no man than to lay down his life for his friend and for Jesus to sacrifice himself on the cross for his people. Yeah, you cound, see how this starts to. You know interact with the with the doctrines of grace even yeah butit’s, just so encouraging to my heart. Well, it is- and I think you know, obviously the world has a definition of love and- and you know- and I think this is where you know we think about okay. How does this conversation work in a past storal since right and here’s how? Because a lot of times even people that grew up in the church, even even good hearted Bible, believing Christians have allowed the world’s definition of love to creep in and shape their understanding of love when they come to the Bible right sdoes that make sense like thee they’re, seeing the the world’s definition of love the this almost like uncontrollable force like Ou. When you see someone you just love them because they’re, you know everything that you ever wanted. You N W it’s a it’s an emotional response to who they are, and I don’t want to. I don’t want us to think that there’s no emotion in loving God, there’s no affection in loving God. There should be great delight and affection Lov Ind God, but we have to be careful not to let the world’s definition of words shape the bibles use and definition of words when we come to them and yeah. I think throughout the New Testament you see tha, that a gape that God’s love for his people is clearly expressed in the sending of his son so that we might live through him, and I think that’s important for us to remember that there is a biblical definition of love and it’s different from the world an we need to be. We need to do our best to find it to grasp on to it and let it soak down deep into our hearts that way when we read love and the New Testament we’re reading it from the biblical perspective, not the worldly perspective o can man language really matters. I mean just think about the way that we use the word love today. We use it in a genuinely like Biblical sense, sometimes to talk about the way that we that we act. You know you might be talking about your our you love your wife and you’re. Talking about the fact that you would, you would lay down your life for her and you make you make decisions every day that are self sacrificial, but then you also might say I love this new kitchen mixer. I got yeah H and, and it’s not necessarily wrong like I’, not saying we shouldn’t say we love a new kitchen mixer, because that’s how the English language has worked out, but the fact that that we use those words similarly can really influence our theology. When we go to the Bible and it says, love and we used love and wayst that are foreign to the New Testament. And on top of that, like you have secular, like the the lgbtq movement, saying, love is love and it’s just. The whole word in culture is just so convoluted and overused in some places under used in others that it makes the conversation hard. If you don’t define it, but I think what we’re saying is God’s love is that God acts in a benevolent and kind way toward his people and then also toward all people, Yeah Yeah. So how would you? How would you biblically explain God’s love for the whole world? What Biblical categories are there for that? Well, theyre, depending on who you talk to or depending on what circles you, you know kind of run around and theologically. You know you might see that there, some people might call it like a common love or a a general love. You know, and you talked about the Matthew- five passage that you know: God causes you know, rein to fall in the unrighteous and the righteous, and things like that. So you have this. This love this Gi. I think I would probably want to call it like a General Lof, a general love that God has for all of creation right we are, we are we’re all all humans are made in the image of God, and so God has this common, loving disposition towards all of creation. That’s how I see it is in the New Testament. That’s good and, I would even add, like God’s love a scene and that in his revelation of himself through creation, you know we talked about common grace and thinking through like Romans one. The fact that the character of God is seen in creation and general revelation is a grace, isn’t is an act of love in itself. wher, if we’re using love is an action. The fact that there are people who are who have not repented and believed in Christ who woke up this morning is, is God’s general love the fact that he’s allowed you opportunity to repent and believe and then there’s the fact that you live in God’s world and you breathe God’s Ar like we’re talking about God’s rain falls. You know on the just or on the rigcest in the end of the unthrighteus yeah. No, an, I think. That’s I mean I think, that’s yeah you can. You can expand this. I mean honestly like what you said. You can expand this t to every facet of life and the idea of that when, when you take a breath right that that is a that is an aspect of God’s love that he is filling your lungs with air. You know th that that we live in a world that is carried by Jesuss powerful word, as the author of Hebrews doesn’t and Hebrews one one through three. So there’s this idea that even just the sustenance of God maintaining this world is a common feature of his love towards all people, and- and you know I would even add that is not a small act of love. I mean the fact that God is maintaining the world allowing people to live in, allowing us to live in. It is a giant act of grace at when you compare it to the fact that we we spit in the face of God every day. In our sin, it’s really not to lessen the love of God at all or the Benevolence of God. It is a. It is an amazing, outstanding, unprecedented act of generosity that God allows his rein to fall on the righteous and the unrighteous. You know, oh absolutely, Ean, you think about even like what you you. You alluded to Romans one earlier and you think about the the idea that you know God’s wrath is being poured out on the ungodly and Paul, as he n impacks. That argument you know he talks about how they took the image of the invisible God of the immortal invisible. As Paul later says. You know he is clothedor. He is surrounded and unapproachable light. They take that God and they replace it with created things right. They make the mistake of idolatry an the fact that God has not destroyed us because of this idolatry and given us an opportunity to even have the opportunity to repeat, I think, is a is a common grace or a common love that God is restraining his wrath towards people that don’t appreciate him, that don’t worship him that don’t love him yeah him holding back and giving us you know a time for repentance is is also a form of that for all people. Yeah and then the last I think I’d mentioned we talk about God’s love being benevolence, God has a you mentioned, God’s loving disposition toward creation, and you see that I think that’s a that’s a very specifically theological word. I think when you’re talking about the will of God as well like his will of disposition- and you see that in Zikiel thirty is it Ezki? Thirty three, I think yeah Yo, Kil, thirty Thire, God does not Delightin the death of the wicked yeah like this is this is a question people have about the will of God, as God doesn’t delight, and the death of the wicket, that is, that is a loving disposition that he has even toward those who are wicked, yeah, absolutely and then- and you have second Peter he’s talking about the patients of God, right that he is dear friends. Don’t overlook this. One fact that the LO, like with the Lord is one day is like a thousand years in a thousand years is like one day. The Lord does not delay his promises und some understandelay, but he is patient with you not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance in this idea of just like you said God does it take pleasure. He doesn’t delight in the destruction of the death of the wicket. He he is patient, slow to anger, wanting people to come to the knowledge of him, and I think that’s important for us to remind people of it’s important for us to remind ourselves that God was patient with us. So therefore we need to be patient and in loving towards towards others as well yeah- and I think also just to mention God- definitely has a loving disposition. He doesn’t delight in the death of the wicked and he desires for all to be saved, and yet you see like PSOM, five, five and six God hates all evil doers, not not evil, not sin but evil. Doers yea, he abhorrs a man of bloodshed, and it’s it’s two very interesting aspects of God’s interaction with his creation. The fact that God is, on the one hand, gracious allowing many opportunities, not delighting in the death of the wicked and, on the other, abhors a man of bloodshed, he hates evil, doers and then, and then you come to God’s love for his church that that, while we were, he sinners, Christ died for us, and so I thought I’d ask you pass it on to you to explain how is God’s love for his church special and how has that revealed? Ot UNYOUR testament yeah. I would say I just back up one second, because I think what you’re, I think, it’s important for us to maybe unpack or just note that that and you and I were trying to with words, describe and talk about the infinite trancendent. Yes, not like us, holy God right and it’s so gand. I think this is something when I was in Uth Ministry. Trying to just remind my students of this was that God is not the best like he’s, not all of the best of human qualities in just like a superhuman type thing like he’s not like the the epitome or the perfection of humanity. He is wholly other, he is unlike us and so we’re doing the best we can write with our finite minds and with our finite language to describe an infinite God, and so I think we have to have grace with each other. I think we have to be patient with each other, as we continue to build off what people have said in the past. Is We continue to build off as we see it carefully to find in scripture? But another thing that came to mind to you is that Paul says: Hey we previously. When we lived according to the ways of the world an Ininfusiane to we were children, we were by nature children of Wrath or under wrath, and then you get into you know what you said: the Special Love that God has for his people, and I love as Polan packs it, but God right, but God who is rich and mercy because of his great love that that he had for us or in the Greek because of his great love he loved us like. I wish that the CSB would translate that you know it sounds a bit redundant, but in the Greek it’s because of his great love, he loved us. So why did guy? Why does God love his people differently? Well, we know this from the Old Testament. He loved Israel, because why he loved Israel, we’re not given right we’re not given this like in introspective or this unthis mystery or inside the mystery. It’s just that. God loves us because he loves us. I depand of who he is. That’s, go ahead, two very important points. First, God loves us because he loves us, because one of the big challenges to this is okay, so God has a particular love for his church. Why? What has the church ever done to deserve more love, an the Answeris, nothing yeah? And- and so, if that’s an objection that you might have or question that you might have to thinking about God, special adverse church, that’s a very important point and then going back to what you said about God’s God, being an infinite God and yet having his one character, one nature. So when we describe the love of God, we’re not describing the love of God and then on the other. On the other hand, he’s got wrath, yeah we’re using human language, human words to describe an infinite God, and if God is completely loving, as the Bible reveals him, then all that he does is is love yea, and so you have to reconcile that in your head with what does it mean that God is love? Well we’re describing an aspect of the character of God? That is always true in all situations, yeah and there you know you know just for a midwestern plug. If you haven’t listened to a red much of Dr Bates from Midwestern, he is a phenomenal, systematic, theologian, phenomenal doctrine of God, scholar, and so he has a book called the UN undomesticated attributes of God- and I just would encourage anybody. That’s listening to this read that book and in because he just does a phenomenal job, and then he has another book coming out called Simply Trinity, which I’m looking forward to which kind of helps. I think unpack some of the stuff you’re talking about of how God can be both love and just both gracious and wrathful, and how all of that can be one thing, because God is not a god of many parts. He’s simple right, he’s this divine simplicity and I’m not a Theologan, I’m more of a biblical studies guy, but I do recognize that that this is important for us to understand that God is one he’s not made up of many parts and so yeah it’s it’s hard to wrestle with in our minds. How can God be loving in in just how can God be gracious, and yet his wrath is poured out on sin? How can he hate? How can Ho hate those who do evil and practice? You know evil yet have a loving disposition and and then even have a special affection or, I think, cut Tom Schriner, Dr Shiner Uses Covenantal love or covenantal affection for his people. Tha, I think, is a helpful term to remember when we’re talking about all of this yeah, it can be difficult to keep all of these categories and keep all of these words straight. That’s why I just tell people you know when you be patient with the language and ask people to help. You know anpack things and go slow. I think that’s important to that’s really good and I’ll also throw a link to that book in the podcast notes, if you guys want to check those out by the way, there’s always a transcription at the bottom of the podcast. So if you want to read it, I mean it’s Automatica ly generated, so it’s not perfect, but if that’s helpful to you, that’s there and they’re always help podcast motes, just if we do mention any resources or anything like that, for you guys and I’ll also just take a second to mention. While I still have stickers for the Brooks podcast, if you are, if you’re a fan like if you genuinely really enjoy listening- and you want to leave a review if you do leave review just let me know and I’d love to send you a sticker for free. But anyway, let’s jump back in Gods, special love for his people. How do you see that in the New Testament you know talked about the language of the New Testament? How do you see God’s Special Love Yeah? I wrote down some just scriptures that that popped off to my head. You have you, have something like Romans, one seven where you know it talks Paul, says to all those who to roam beloved by God called, is holy ones or holy saints. You know that word, a GOPIC toice is just sometime and actually you know I love the CSB, but I really don’t like it that they a lot of times the New Testament. They translate a Gapatois to dear friends, and I just think that’s such a mistranslation because it really is beloved. We are Boser by master con or maybe no one told you, but you cannot disrespect the CSB on the Brooks podcast Osa we live, ind breathes, CSBDISCE, Hey, listen, I’ve been preaching. I’ve been preaching with the CSB for three years now, fwath coming up on four. Actually it’s such a it’s such a great translation. It is it is. I just I don’t understand why they didn’t trainslike, that the traditional way pretty Wa there are a few other things too. That t et translate the gree court for slave do loss. Yeah is as servants when it’s. I know it’s not slave, but I’m like. It’s also definitely not servant. You know and in some context it should just be translated sleve. It really should. I know that. That’s not like you know, whatever you call it status quo or you know like popular, but it really in many context do lots just meant slave, but so agopic toys beloved Romans, one seven one of the one of my favorite versus and all of Paul’s epistols Coosons, three twelve. He says you know, therefore, as you are chosen wholly and dearly loved by God, and then he you know before he gives them. This exhortation this command. He reminds them of who they are. They are wholly, they are chosen and they are dearly. Love you just don’t you don’t have that language geared towards the world? You think about like a first Tesalonians one, four and five Paul says you know. We know that you are loved and chosen by God, because the Gospel did not come to you just in mere words, but it came to you and then he lists out. You know it came to came to them with power and full of the Holy Spirit and full favorite men like those are just those are just passages that come to my mind, as I was you know, going through some of this stuff theire passages that you just see it’s like this is not. This is not the way that God talks about the rest of the world right Paul is not using words to describe the world he’s using these words geared towards Christians, and I think one of the other things that really helped me as I was starting to really study, and this came about when I start starte study Greek. But you you want to look at who the writer right, if its Paul Peter you know when he says something like us, or he says something like you who is he talking to right, like when Paul says to those in Rome he’s not talking about all of the city of Rome right he’s talking about the Christians and Rome, the Christians that are in roame the church at Rome and it just like in Tesalonians. You know he’s talking to the Christians at Theselanika, and so when he says these things about us or about you, he’s talking about Christians, he’s talking about God’s Church, and so when you start to really, I think, look at how Paul uses these this language and how he uses pronouns right and who he’s referring to that. When you stop and do those things slowly, that has gone a long way and helping me figure out: okay, when pasas dearly loved holy and chosen, like he’s talking about the scints at Colossi, he’s not talking about all of the city of Colossi right, and so I think that’s that’s important for us to remember, yeah, believe it or not. I think one of the first passages to come to my mind was EPHESIAN’s five, and you know people think of it is the passages about husbands and wives yeah, but there’s some pretty chrystological language in that passage as well. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the Church, so talking about Christ’s love for the Church and gave himself for her to make her holy cleansing her with the washing of water by the word- and he did this to present the church to himself in splendor without spot or wrinkle, or anything like that, but wholly and blameless. And you see God’s Love and action to the church in the fact that that Christ died for her and is sanctifying her that Christ sent his Holy Spirit to live in her and that that Christ is still at work through his church. So the fact that God is at work in us today and and will keep us to the end is an act of love that is special and because God doesn’t God hasn’t done, that with all of the world. He does that with his people. Yeah well, and I think of it, just like a text like first John Tin. First on Foureen, love, consists or love. Is this not that we loved God, but that he loved US and sent his son to be a a toning sacrifice or, however, you want to translate Helassmoss for our sins. The hour there is God’s people. This is a mean to me first, John, four: Seven through ten, it is like a slam, dumk text for God having a special love for his church and so yeah. Those are to me those are important, important passages to really ponder and reflect on. I think of something like Second Timothy Tutin, where Paul says I endure all thanks for the sake of the elect so that they might come to know salvation, so they might come to have salvation. It’s Paul, I think in his mind, there has an idea that I’m enduring these things for those whom God is calling to salvation, I’m not during all these things for like the world in general, but for a specific people that God is calling yeah, I mean, I think, just to add on another first John Three, one see what great love the father has given us that we should be called God’s children, and we are the reason the world does not know us is that it didn’t know him you’re thinking. What is how can we see the great love that God has given us? It’s that we’re called the children of God, and you mentioned earlier that before we were in Christ, we were children of Wrath Yoand, it’s just a such great point of love for God’s people. This particular love for God, Churchis encouraging, because Christ is committed in his particular love to the church. Absolutely so brooks. Let me ask you this, you kind of talked about this is a controversial or this is goin to be a a hot button topic. What do you hear from people or what versus do you see? People push back on this idea of God having a special love for his church, so first it comes a lot, an less from verses and more from theological ideals. If you have a cenergistic view of salvation, you believe that Jesus didn’t die effectively for his church, but that he died potentially for all. Then you can’t say that God has a specific love for his people, because it he hasn’ he may have died for his people in that they repented and believed, but he because he has died for all people. Then this this theological ideal wouldn’t make sense yeah and then I think that the few verses they might mention. I mean we hear John Thr d, sixteen all the time for God so loved the world and it an understandable view because in the New Testament the world a lot of times refers to the sinfulness of the world, but the world is used in different ways here, and so I just thought I’d ask you actually wh t what is your view of John Thre n sixteen? How does that relate to this conversation? And how can Christians interpret that yeah? So it’s interesting a part of this. This conversation is always going to depend on your interpretive linses or your harmonutical to use a big word there. Sorry, but you know what what type of Hermonutics are you approaching the text with what what principles are guiding your your interpretive type of of understanding and- and so you know, you think about first Jon thre. Sixteen one, I would say is that so there you know for God’s, so love the world is not in the Greek, an intensive multiplier right. It’s not it’s not trying to give way of that. God solove, like I’ve, heard sermons where people say well, you know the the whole servon might be, like God, so loved it’. No, no! It really should be interpreted God loved the world in this way, so that Youre, quoting the CSB here se last FM, do against the CSB. Now, just so I mean, but but I mean here’s, why here’s a little plug from a biblical studies, Guy, learn Greek and and be humble about it, but learn it learn it learn. It continue to learn, continue to grow in that because it will prove to be fruitful for a lifetime ye I mean I’m off of it. Sorry just to say I ‘. It would be very hypocritical for me to encourage people to learn Greek but to just add onto that rob plummer who’s, a professor of Greek at southern seminary mentioned and t at this is stuck with me that what when you read the New Testament, you are only reading God’s word in so far as it reflects the original language. When we mistranslate things, then then you’re not accurately reading the word of God, but I mean, but English translation is the word of God. A good English translation is Eah, but it’s important to learn the language because of that, because for so long we heard, for God so loved the World Yeah as an as an amplifier and that vurse and then you come to realize it was actually, for God, love the world in this way. It’s just an important point there. So what I would say brooks back to John Three, sixteen specifically and then even I mean, like I’ve, been studying first John, this week, even first John Same author, in my opinion, first John to to is another problem, verse or another verse that you have to wrestle with, but here’s one of the things you got to think about, and it comes to interpretation of principles and there’s two things I would tell people what is this scripture is not in conflict with scripture. We might be in conflict with scripture and our understanding may be in conflict of scripture. But if you hold to the the idea that all scriptures got breathed and is useful for teaching correcting rebuking training up and Righteous, etc Etcera, then the idea is that all scriptures, true all scriptures God breathe and it’s not in conflict with each other, and so one portion of scripture is not going to contradict another portion of scripture and doctrine, and so we need to understand John Thre. Sixteen in light of the rest of the New Testament, we don’t understand the rest of the testament. In light of John Three D. Sixteen I think that is crucial for people to understand the Sano thing also just yea, interpreting more more clear text to be more clear and less clear text to be less clear like using something. That’s that’s not very debated it can’. I can only mean what it’s saying: Yeah, I’m to help. You interpret things that are a little bit harder to understand. Yeah absolutely, and that was that was you stole my line, Brother N, I’m just teasing, but really that would be yeah Y. AH, that’s. The second thing I was going to say is we use. We should use clear text to help us understand unclear text and I would say this: We should use a plurality of text to help us understand, singular text, and what I mean by that is, is that one singular unclear text must yield to the plorality of clear text and so, like you were saying like if we have an uncleare text, I like y. This is really I’m wrestling with it. I think at first John to two really wrestling. What does this mean? Then whe? You use the you know if you think about this in terms of priority, I would say: Okay use the rest of John to help understand John to to first John, to to and then use the rest of the New Testament to help understand first jon to to not try to help not try to make it mean something on its own. We understand the parts in light of the whole when it comes to New Testament interpretations, I think that’s really important. We we look at something like John Thr nd. Sixteen, what does John Mean, or what does Jesus mean by that? That passage? What is he trying to say there and because first jor Si John Three d? Sixteen by itself is not enough evidence to overthrow the multiple versus that we’ve been wrestling with and dialoguing with, and so and we don’t believe as evangelicals at least myself. I don’t believe that scripture is contradicting other scripture. So therefore I need to interpret John Thr and sixteen in light of the rest of the New Testament. That’s how I would wrestle through this yeah there’s. Also the attitude of I think a lot of times. We want to take scripture and say you know, well this one’ like try to explain other scripture away with it. I go this one makes this one not mean this when in reality, I think it a more humble approach, it would be to say like for US looking at John Three and sixteen, what does this mean? How can I apply God’s word, and maybe if you have some doubts about this, take God’s love for his church and the passages that we’ve mentioned earlier and ask yourself the same question. What does this mean then? Actually, what is the implication of this because I think that’s where genuine growth will come from when studying the scriptures and honestly honord to have had the same thought as you at same time, so tit’s awesome man. I have one last question for you yeah. Why is this important to talk about? Why is this important for the church to understand and what? What are your thoughts on that yeah? I think a couple things come to mind. One is what we need to. We need to remember that pauls passages on things like election on things like being chosen on things like predestination. They are reflective passages. They are encouragement passages they are hathey are passages that Paul writes to instill. In God’s people, hope in the midst of a fallen world, and so God having a love for us because he loved us. That’s it like. We didn’t do anything to earn this love. We didn’t do anything to to for God to just say: Oh Hey, I love culter connor, and so you know I’m choosing him O. No, no, that that’s not how it workes. So I would say for us, it’s reflective in nature, and it helps to humble us that I literally did not do anything to deserve the grace that Jesus has given me my life, so it humbles us it. It’s reflective in the sense that it should encourage us to keep pressing on to creep moving forward, because God is not going to. Let us go, I think, of a passage like first Peter, three or sort first Peter one. Three through five we’ve been born again into this living hope and this this living hope right. It’s an inheritance force and it’s imperishable, undefiled and unfading. Like God’s inheritance. For us, this treasure is being guarded by God and his power through our faith, and so this idea of God’s special love reminds us as the church that we are his people that he’s not leting go no matter how difficult things get, no matter how hard life is, God is steady, consisten, he he was. He isn’t he and he is to come that whole idea of God being faithful it I mean two thousand and twenty has been difficult year for everyone, but it’s been really difficult for for our family. You know, and it’s been difficult, pastoring in a pandemic, it’s been difficult was just some of the things you know. My wife was recently diagnosed with cancer she’s, twenty seven you’re not supposed to get cancer at twenty seven, but God’s unfading, unfailing love for us. His beloved in Christ has been a tremendous amount of encouragement. So I think, from a pastoral standpoint, is so helpful to know that God has a covenant, Special Affection for his church, whom Christ died, for, I think that’s really important. Yeah great summary Man Amen Well, pastor, Connor! Thank you so much for joining. I really enjoyed this conversation. I know it’s going to be super helpful for people listening, so I really appreciate it. Man, hey brother, thanks for having me on. I would love to come back and chat with you anytime. You want. This has been a great joy to meet and it’s been a great joy just to think about it and help to write some things down, to express some more clearly appreciate what you’re doing brother keep it up thanks and we’ll see you guys in the next episode. Thank you for streaming this episode of the Brooks podcast. Please leave a review of the podcast with your honest spots and for more content for me. Follow me on twitter, at Mr Brookster. That’s Mister, brookster and instagram at Brook Sdot S, Ze Ceou in the next episode