Many of us have been learning the Doctrines of Grace wrong.
The doctrines of grace rely on a particular understanding of the person of God.
You can’t start with TULIP before deeply understanding God’s sovereignty, holiness, love, and immutability of God.
In this episode, Pastor Jeremiah Hurt joins us to discuss how the character of God is indispensably foundational to a proper understanding of the Doctrines of Grace.
We also discuss some common misconceptions about Calvinism that stem from a misunderstanding of the attributes of God.
Pastor Jeremiah Hurt is a church planter and pastor at Reforming Truth Church in Lexington, KY. He is a faithful gospel teacher and shepherd of the flock of God.
Please leave a review of this episode with your honest thoughts or share any comments with us here.
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Note: This is an automatic transcription with limited accuracy.
Welcome to the Brooks podcast, a podcast made for the Church hosted by a justified center and frequent guests. Please welcome your host to Subjeck, well, hello, everyone and welcome back to the Brooks podcast. My name is brooks and host the PODCAST, and today I’m here with someone who has bringg a lot of value and I’m really excited to have them. One Pastor jeremia hurt we’re going to be talking about the importance of kind of some foundational doctrines behind the doctrines of grace and salvation talking about the doctrine of God and how that plays its part in that pastor, hurt as a posture at reforming truth, Church and Lexsington Kentucky, and he has a very large family. I think he said six kids all under eleven years old is that right, paster, her yeah, that’s right! Awesome, Andy and you have come to this podcast to bring the hurt to sin. The fost doctrine, so super excited to have you and to have this conversation and really I’m. I think this is going to be really fun to talk about yeah t. What would you say is the the cruks of what we want to get ou kind of the problem that we’re trying to address a you. Do have a lot of people teaching the doctrins of grace that don’t have a a very strong foundational understanding of the doctrine of God. You know who god is and then be, and so so I think this podcast would encourage people that already agree with the doctors of grace to kind of go back and learn more about the attributes of God and who, God is and then and then Yo. You will just see how those not only support the doctors of grace but are foundational to the doctrines of grace, and then I would say in that when you have people that don’t believe the doctrines of grace, I think the number one apologetic, maybe for lack of better word to, because I want people to believe the doctors of grace. I mean I’m, not a angry calbinist, I’m not a hypercalbinist, but it’s the doctrirs of grace. I love Gres. I love the doctrines of grace as every Christian should, and I think you can get there in conversations actually talking about the doctins of grace with with people that don’t believe them and you might make some headway. You may not, but I think, like a a roundabout, a PROC that I actually think is more effective again because it’s foundational is to actually start talking about who, God is and laying that foundation. So I think I think what we’re talking about will be really helpful for people that already believe in the doctrines of grace to further their understanding and see that it all is is based on who, God is, and then I think, as far as an apologetic for for people like you and or myself and yourself that believe in the doctons of grace, to like hey here’s, another angle that I actually hadn’t thought of, and that’s actually just talking about who God is first and let’s get on that let’. Let’s see if we can get on that same same page first, before we start talking about how God actually been works in creation in salvation yeah. I think, to put it rather like bluntly, if you do not hold into like a reformed understanding of salvation and I think a lot of Thi Times. Your first reaction might be anger or sadness or just like discussed with the idea. It doesn’t necessarily come from the doctrines of salvation themselves. It comes because you’re trying to fit those within a view of God’s character that isn’t compatible with scripture and and that’s where that’s where it seems so incompatible because we don’t have an actual understanding of God’s holiness or his sovereignty yea, just for example. So I think in if you are reformed- and you have trouble talking to people about the doctrines of grace without it’s just some bad reaction, you feel, like people generally aren’t receptive. It might be because you’re, starting with some of the more complex doctrines of grace and not helping them to understand the bibles teaching on the sovereignty of God, for example, or the holiness of God, o the love of God. What is that? What is that actuall? What is the love of God, actually mean? I think, as a crux. A lot of the argument as well- Oh so, hopefully, pastor hurt, can help us to think through this kind of t, if you, if you do believe in the doctrines of grace, to be able to understand the foundation behind it in the character of God, so that we can more accurately teach and and help people to love and revel ind, the grace of God through the Bibles Teaching on salvation. And if you, if you have questions about reformed theology, ‘ve been like thinking through Calvinism or the doctors of grace. I think you and I I don’t know for sure F an Wa speak free, but I think we both prefer like the term doctrines of grace. Typically when talking about this. But yes, yes, I mean, if, if somebody’s like, if someone’s going to be like, are you a calvinist Han? I I would say? Yes, maybe I might jokeingly say no, I’m an Augustinian yeah. I think I prefer accuracy so F. someone says if someone says like reformed and they don’t mean reformed that I’m like no I’m not reformed, but you’re saer formed and they’re, like you mean youlike, Youre Calviness, and I’m like okay reform. You know, but even even in that you almost got to go like okay hold on hold on. What do you mean by like kind of like what you’re just kind of luding? To what do you mean by calvinist? Oh Toa? What do you mean by Tula? Well, you know total de Prod. What do you mean by Talkand then you’re already yeah, because there’s so many Li misconsention lain this massive conversation before you can actually have the conversation. I like, I, like the term reformation anes, that’s kind of what I you know, youknowthere’s Som Min there’s so many Tereris. I definitely have a reform view of the doctrine of God and a reformview of the doctrine of subteriology for sure, EAH and and you’re getting at the heart of it there. I think the doctrine, the reformed doctrines of Satereology, the doctrines of grace, rely on a particular understanding of the person of God and because F, that’s kind of what we want to get into today. So to I guess, to kick us off what doctrines do you think we should be talking about or thinking not when we’re thinking through reformed, sateriology? Okay. So when we had talked on the phone earlier, you had brought up the holiness of God, just as quickly as I brought up the sovereigny o God and I think I’ll talk a little bit about the somety of God and then maybe kick it over to you, and we can talk about the holiness of God, because I mean with time constraints. We could talk about a lot of them. I think you could get real creative and be like hey. Let’s talk about everything abut the sovereignty of God, because I think that would be actually ververy helpful, but for lack of UNORIGINALITY. I think the sovereign, the doctrine of God’s sovereignty is the most obvious an and is almost becoming now like a neglected starting point because everybody wants to be original, but I think the sovereignty of God is the most obvious doctrine to start off and then defining what what what we mean by that because, as you probably well know, everybody believes God is sovereign. Nine out of ten Christians, a yew hous are going to say yes, but then, when you start digging in and what they mean, you actually find out. Ninea out of ten people, don’t believe that guys is sovereign and I, if you can get on the God, is absolutely in total control. Absolute total control of everything forever from from Pointa to point being everything in between. I think, if you can get people on that that page, then that will really lay the groundwork. For then the doctrins of grages I mean it’s, they make they make sense, and- and that’s actually how I came to understand the doctrines of gragsist when somebody it was actually one of my brothers who was rerformed before me, my older brother, I come from a big family there I gav seven brothers or seven brothers and sisters, and he didn’t do it on purpose like he wasn’t like like thinking. Okay, I’M gonna. Instead of talk about to look with him, I’m going to start talking about soverigty, but that’s KINDF s how the conversation went and and when I started doing a deep dive ind, what this Army of God actually meant in scripture and what the Church has historically understood that to me, then that that open it just blew the lid off thet. My understanding of what the Darkon of the grace re really are, and I think that’s an obvious starting point in one that should not be neglected is hey. Do you really? Okay, you don’t believe in the doctrins of grace okay, but do you believe that God is an absolute total control of everything? Do you know that? God knows everything and always had you: Do you believe that God has decreed and ordained everything those are critical discuss? Do you believe that God is immutable? I mean those are all infinite, eternal rthere they all meet kind of in the sorvmegnty Ri. You believe that God is almight. I mean you could take every angle but yeah, I think in it comes down to as as well. It comes down to an understanding of the preeminence and the Lordship of God, so’re talking about salvation somthin God’s sovereignty in all things, so that B, God’s sovereignty over kingdoms over over planets over people over hearts and lives. Does God have preeminence? Does God have the power the control and does he have the the just responsibility to govern all of those things? So you might think God could interact with with human hearts, but he wouldn’t because he doesn’t have the the just responsibility to do that. But if you have a proper view of the sovereignty of God, you understand that God is not just able to affect your heart. He his Lord of your heart, God has preeminence over your heart. Your heart is a creation that belongs to him and B perfect, keep going man it’s great, and you were mentioning like how this doctrine kind of interacts, with all the others talk about the amutability of God. ETCA. That, I think, is super important to talk about the simplicity of God, because we tend to compart mentalize each of these things you think of sovereignty, and then that’s all you think of, and then you think of holiness, and that’s all you think of, but in reality these two work together. God is not a sum of fifteen different attributes, he is himself and these are just words that were using to describe who he is so in reality, his sovereignty is, is a holy sovereignty and an just sovereignty and in a mutable soveregr teeth, prace God, his power cand never grow because Er fade right, yeah, Yeah God’s, not God’s, not learning. If you take that like, if you just take that approach like okay, God knows everything: Okay! Well, then, if God knows everything did, is he choosing? Because he knew I was going to choose him? Well, you just underminded the socereignty of God and you actually undermine then the decree of God I mean th, the God, doesn’t know, God, God doesn’t decree based on what he learns, because he doesn’t learn anything he doesn’t decree based on what he knows. He knows because he decrees, he knows everything because he decrees. Everything and, like you said th one of my elders, Jos, paingborn talking to him last night, did exactly what you just did Wen immediately to the simplicity of God and just man, it’s such a. We do we can partmentalize, we think God is just over here, especially in the doctrins of salvation. You know the doctors of grace- God is just over here but and he’s loving over here, and if he does, this then he’s not loving and he it’s like. No God is never not loving. God is never not just you no yeah, so you know, God has wrath. The Bible reveals, God has wrath, but it also says God. His love are those two contradictory. Do they own? This love only exist when God is not wrath when God isn’t showing his wrath n. The answers know God’s Alhas and even like connecting it to the doctrine of sovereign ammutability to the doctrine of sovereignty. Is God, when you say, like I surrinded my heart to the Lord or I made hit, I made the made him the Lord of my life. Did God gain any more power over your life? No, he was already in control of your life. God was already the Lord of your heart. You you, the those things, aren’t bad to SIG, necessarily if you’re saying, like I’m suver and during to Hist Lordship, I’ rit right right right, I agree, but just in general like there’s there sometimes. I think we think that we are the Lord of our hearts. Until until we decide to make godlord of ine and then he has control, he has power to change our heart in our lives and to throwout idols. But in reality, God God’s Holy Spirit has power over harts because he’s the Creator and owner of them the creator creation distinctive, is a massive help to in this whole discussion, and that’s that’s where a holiness comes in as well, because we think of the like the sovereignty of God or the love of God and human terms and holiness, tells us God’s love is so completely other than our love. God’s love is so perfectly loving that that Aur, our ideas of love, can’t really comprehend the perfection of his love. You know what I mean Ersnot, a good way to say that you think no, no, no, that’s good! I mean we lose if we’re not ind hehere’s. Ultimately, maybe the crucks of the whole situation about getting this order right is we lose the transcendence of God, the otherlyness of God, The holiness of God, the set a partness of God when we just look how God acts towards creation, whether it’s in the scriptures or even our right interpretations or even, are misinterpretations of the doctor of salvation, and then we reflect that back on who God is meanwhile we’re ignoring loads and loads of scripture. That actually do declare. Who, God is I mean, and then, when we are e, when we are when we are Tasi for lack of better word and we are deciding who, God is based on, how we how he reveals themselves in creation and salvation, then, ultimately, the the pitfall there is we we oftentimes and end up forming a God after own image, yeah making God o our own likeness. That’s yes, very true into some extent the revelation of God. ININ creation does teach us the character of God, like you think, Romans, one, his invisible attributes, that is his devine power and I his invisible natrot. What is the I don’t remember, but anyway, you see the autributes have got in creation, but we have a an inerrant word of God with specific revelation intended to teach us the character of God and if we start from creation, rather than starting from the Bible itself, we’re starting at W we’re just basically starting at their own starting point and what ridenly is a lot of ronk conclusions? Yeah, yes, is eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen in creation. So, yes, you can learn things that I mean you can learn revelation that maybe tha a mean. It’s not going to lead you toward salvation, but it can. If you really would stop and think it’s going to lead you to some right conclusions about who, God is I mean again, the creature creator distinctive cannot be. It cannot be overstated to constantly be thinking about the transcendence of God, old Wel to me, the holiness of God, like, like you said, and then, when you start thinking about the holiness of God Lik, they think when you, when you think about the holiness of God. First, in this type of of case, you didn’t think about your own. You didn’t get a ripe rerspective of man which again didn’t lead you directly into the doctrines of grace total depravity. I mean God is holy, and that means he’s utterly other and he’s transcendent and he set apart, but it also it wholy does and most people only think of holiness in the moral aspect. It does mean he’s morally perfect and then we can then start to see ourselves in Ligh of that and what destgrimer say about us. Well, it says we’re totally deprayed I mean it says, we’re evil and our heart is, is evil and full of jestseed and that we’re dead in our trespasses and sens. and but but if you start man, if you start with man and then try to reflect that on God, then man man starts to get real offended when they start seeing real truth hat. I think I told you last night. I can’t remember who it was, but it was eye opening, because it was exactly my experience when someone said Hey Wen. He said when my students come to seminary and I start teaching them classicaltheism. Their reaction is very slimmer to one of Harry Herrisy at first, because theyve, just they’ve never even been taught this stuff, and it’s so new and so mind glowing that they just there’s. No, they don’t even think it can be right and accurate, and then he went on to say you know by the middle of the semester or at least the end of the semester. They realize that the ‘r. This is the declare truth of the Scriptures. Is The dedit clar truth for the most part of the church for two thosand years and it’s in the creeds and it’s in the confessions and it’s absolutely beautiful, but it is absolutely different than the last two hundred years of theology yeah. I remember watching RC sproll Teacha class once and I think he asked something along the lines of do you believe the God ordains. Whatever whatsoever comes to pass and about half of the people like raise her handsaying, they believed it and he goes I’m guessing the rest of you aren’t our atheists. He was like he was like, because this isn’t a doctrine specific to reformd theology. This isn’t even a doctrine specific to Christianity. This is just a theistic understanding of God that if Youif, you are monotheistic, you believe in God you believe that God is also all powerful. Your other options are either Deism or atheism right, which is why you have a lot of the classical Greeks. They had a lot of right views of who, who God is and is, and his attributes you know, which is why sometimes the churches said to have stolen from the from the Greeks. It’s not just not true it’s just again, it’s God refeeled and nature, and there you go yeah. Well, Hey guys. I just want to talk straight to the viewers, real quick, just to mention it. If you’re a fan of the Brooks podcast like you really enjoy listening to it, I I would love for you to go ahead and leave a review of the podcast kind of just leave your thoughts, and I have some stickers here with the Brooks podcast cover on them. The logo for the PODCAST I’d love to send you one of those for free. If you do enjoy it and leave a review I’ll, just I’ll even pay postage and everything. If you just let me know you can go onto my website and click on the contact form or if you have my number, my email or social media o whatever anyway just to reach out, and let me know that you’ve left it and I’d love to send one of those to you. But Anyway, back back into it. You wanted to mention as well. I think the infinity of God, and so how would you? How would you define that an? What do you think the implications of that are for theology, for the rest of the doctrines of God and for salvation? That’s pretty broad, but it is pretty broad but basicacaly, God is without Lin. He has no limits, and so, if he has no limits in himself and then every attribute because f wha you brought up rod or the simplicity of God is without limits. Is Knowledge is power? And then even the communical attributes is mercy is grace. Is Compassion. They’re without limit, but if you just think about the incommunicable attributes that that es that we think about or just other ther theyre theyre, not human, at allfultheres it it lets us know like if we again it’s a good way to get people to think about the sovregnty of God and the power of God and the knowledge of got. It is it’s without limit, and if so, if that is true, then then the doctrines of grace a getting falling fall into place. I mean, of course, he chose you before the foundations of the world. How I would like to know how he couldn’t do that. I mean that would almost to me be like. Can God make a rock big enough that he can’t Livt? I mean, of course, the ridiculous question, but can God make a creation and then make away for salvation for a creation and and not be an absolute total control of everything along the woay? I think answers no and a good, a good way to think about that is to think about his his imminent. I is to think about the fact that he’s without Limin he’s without limit, so he can’t Lini himself, which again people actually believe that he can and that he did. The Bible doesn’t Ento that that’s that’s typically very heretical view. I mean that you’re getting into people who believe that God intentionally limits himself or that God is just it by nature, limited in the scope, yeah Socrigty, that’s that’s Tipith or his knowledge, that’s typically open, theism or ovas s were all disleated. Eventually I mean it definitely does yeah and by the way, we’re talking about a few. A few terms, I just want o quick, quick define first for talking about communicable and incommunicable attributes. Pastor heart mentioned that earlier and just to say communicable attributes or the attributes of God that we can share in to an extent. Of course, we can never have them in the way that God has, but we can, God can grant us the ability to walk in those attributes as well. So, for instance, h, the love of God is a communicable attribute, not that we’ll ever love as perfectly as God, but that we can love. But but there’s incommunicable attributes as well that we can’t have, for instance, sovereignty will not we’ll never have the complete power, God thereis actually debate at. That was probably a bad example, because there’s debate around whether or not that’s communicale orincommutable but maybe eternality would have been better yes, eturnality’s, a good one I mean were certainly not infinite. You know, we certainly don’t know everything and then open feeism as well. I feel like we should probably define that for it’s a it’s just a theological system, that’s fairly new to church history. That believes that God only knows that which he can possibly know and en they exclude a lot of human actions from the knowledge of God. So God doesn’t know what we are going to do and yea Okeniso Soe Ideism, which yeah I mean. I don’t know, people use DEISM, but I kind of feel like majority of Christians and at least in the United States are like Sim ideas. You know they, God, God is sovereign and he does intervene in creation every once in a while, but most of the most of the time he’s just letting it happen, and then you would say well, then, when does he intervene? Well, he intersvenes. When things are going well and when things are not going well, God had nothing to do with that and again they don’t, they haven’t been taught and it’s fine. I had’t, I wasn’t taught forever either. You Know First Causes Second Secondary Causes, D, mens and stuff. Like that, you know awesome and the are there any other doctrines of God. You think would be important to talk about before we discuss kind of the implications that they have on toto. That think, I think you could go on. You could talk about every single one and really do it deep die B t, but I think the simplicity of God really kind of connects it al together, and I think the holiness of God and Disormegny you’ve got are really too goodthey’re. So obvious. Both aspects of God’s holiness is the moral aspect, and the otherly aspect, I think, are really helpful and then the sovereignt ofe got A. I know that again to be original. We kind of want to find some any other attribute, besides the soveregny of God, but it’s like no, I mean this is a big one. We once you have a right understanding of the soverignty of God and what that actually means again. It blows the lid off on the doctrins of grace and how he acts towards creation and a specifically insalvation. So I think just to give a like good summary here. What we would what we would recommend if you’re someone who wants to look into understanding salvation from a reformed perspective, start reading through reformed writings on the person of God. First, so maybe open up a systematic theology, or you know, there’s tons of books out there and just read about the holiness of God. The sovereignty of God start there and then move into and to thinking through Tulip moveing to thinking through those kind of Yeahins, and I would say, take your time me take your time and yeah. If you know somebody that can have these discussions without getting mad at you and angry have those discussions now I do have a couple people in my life that we actually theyr conversations are pretty lively, but I only have a couple people where I can actually be really lively about this stuff. Everybody else is you just you got to be careful. You got to know what you’re talking have known some people who start like thinking through this and they feel like they have to like they’re just in a bad place, and they have to come to the conclusion as soon as possible and kind of stressed out about that, but th. These are. These are difficult doctrines to understand. If you haven’t been introduced, t them t before it’s okay to take your time to really consider it. I would especially consider if yo like, if you have not really been looking into this, for that long, actually, maybe don’t come down super hard. Consider yourself to be a learner and really kind of go thinking through these doctrines and an a more longer time maybe take a yeah. Would I recommend that to you and then- and then you know, don’t you know, don’t be a jerk if you actually come to, but also don’t be a jerk you bome to these conclusions, but here’s the thing that cariature is kind of real, but I think it’s not as real as we think it is, and so I do send a a lot of people that, because they’re afraid of being that guy or being thought of as that guy that they’re, actually they actually aren’t, they keep their excitement in and don’t really talk about the doctor of God in the doctrins of grace as much as they ca. These are massive. These are. These are the doctror of Godis everything and in the doctrine of salvation, is everything for us and we should be. We should be excited. I have. I actually have three three thoughts on that specific caritature, one, certain groups of people, certain ideologies they do lend themselves more toward particular sins. So it’s possible that within reformed theology, one particular sin t that reforme people are inclined toward as pride just because of the depths of their knowledge, but I think a lot more of that comes down to that reform. People typically care about doctrine and want to share it. People who are not reformed it just I’m just I’m Generai’, making a big over generalization here, but people that are not reformed, typically care less overall about doctrine about thinking through these things, and so when it comes to perform people who want you to say things correctly, they really want to come out. It H, it’s kind of just a meshing of what to different groups of people care most about right. It’s I think it might have even come out of the like the piatistic desire to act and not to put theology first right, but to put ethics first. I would probably agree it will. If the if the issue with the reform is intellectualism, then the issue with the non rform of be anti intellectualism, and it’s like hey man, we got to use our mind. I mean to not use our mind. To not want to be. Intellectuals is actually to throw the gift of the mind backin the Creator’s face, and we don’t want to. We don’t want to do that yeah and then Bu, then I think just the challenge of theyre formed o be anti emotionalism as well, and that that’s ee kind of have to blend the two things together of doctrine should affect your heart and I think that’s a large part of the problem is when people start to look into erform theology makes them angry, doesn’t give them joy, which is the opposite reaction that you should have, because it’s sin o make you joyful and Gracious, which is O, I think, kind of what we’re geting at this hole time. Yeah s see how all these things are so connected and I’m glad there is a movement in reform theology that has really recognized this and is is actually really talking about it and writing and communicating in a way or what I mean. I think you said you might even have a class with them like Matthew, Barret and guys like him. It’s like man. I mean it’s so good to have these guys out there that aren’t mad at everybody. They really just want people to know truth. The truth sets US free. The truth is set us free and and you’re right. I mean when I think about the Someregnyo God I man my heart, explodes and also rest an emotional rest and just resting in the fact that God is a control Pirstin in two thousand and twenty well, it’s good to know that, God s is he’s in absolute total control. I O relling as well like it’s humbling and et just gives oa like a breath of fresh air IOP. I worry about things so much because I can’t control everything. I think that’s one thing covid has ta taught us is we aren’t actually in control as much as we think they are? But to me that’s I mean someone who embraces. You know the doctrines of God. That’s actually a good thing, because iay gre a lot worse in control, my life than God would yeah it’s a great t, ing it’s a great it’s a burden. It’s a burden off! It’s a loadoff, the chests! Let’s talk them for a little bit about the implications that these doctrines of God, theology Properis, what they’re called when you’re studying them, but ho? How does that impact our understanding of the doctrines of grace and I can kind of just generally an overview? What are your first thoughts? Well? Well, one of the first things as it does is it puts sovereign in front of the word ggrats, alright, not to be the deaoworse, but it’s we’re talking about sovereign grace. When we are talking about the doctrines of salvation we are. Ultimately, we are starting with the soveregnty of God. Before we get into you know, total depravity, Anconditional ICT, an limited or definite atonement, effectual, calling or irrssistible grace and perseverance of the sents before we get into that, then that same doctrine of God then sets the actual tone of the doctrine of salvation. The same emphasis on the holiness and the otherliness of God sets the tone. The whole creator creation distinctive sets the tone that the whole decree of God sets the town and then our doctor of salvation is going to be informed rightly before we even get into it, and then the scriptures are going to just back up and just dump a truck load of scriptures to support, support the right, the right, the right view. What I believe in absolutely is the right views that man is totally deprayved. Well, how do you know that? Well, when I was looking at the attributes of God and thinking about the character of God and its, The holiness and just is goodness, I started to see that man is not like God, and so I’m not offended by to total tepravity, because because I’m not offended that I’m not like God, I am not go, and I I for years didn’t necessarily think I was God, but I thought of myself in a lot better terms great before I really understood who God was and then you get into limited atone, and I mean it- I mean everybody believes in a version of limited atement and definite atonement. And it’s like, of course, whoever was saved. It’s it’s limited, not everybody! You saved unless you’re a universalist, which I know that’s picking up some steam litly but b t again, that’s you’re Jist, fitting that under the sovereigny of God that have re’ there’s, not a bunch of people running around that could have been saved if God only had more power or is in more control. No, you know in then election. Of course, it’s of course we’re not elected based off any I mean even Ipesians. One were chosemen for the foundations of the world to be holy. It’s not because we are holly again, it’s just Soso connected Y. U Ow! Yeah! Absolutely I mean thinking through those the limited atonement, especially it was. I was just thinking through the intentionality behind the Lordship of God over everything, an effect if you’re saying that the atonement wasn’t limited and it’s in its scope, in other words, you’re saying that the Automan is only limited by human response. Then you’re saying that that either Christ was unintentional on the cross with who he was going to save, which I think contradicts the Bible is teaching on the Lordship of God over his creation and the fact that God is even the Lord of Salvation Salvation belongs to God or you’re, saying that that God was intentional with everyone and failed and and yes intentions to multiple to a large group of people and that doesn’t fit none of those fit within the character of God. Exactly the only doctrine of salvation that fits within the character of God is, is a reform understanding of limited or definite atonement right, because you so you just what you did was just perfect, you didn’t say, doesn’t fit within the doctrines of grace it doesn’t, but it’s because it doesn’t fit within the right understanding of who, God is the doctrine of God. That’s why it doesn’t fit in the right. Understanding of the doctrine of salvation is because it doesn’t fit in the right view of the doctrin. The doctor I’ got. I mean: Do we really think after reading OUR BIBLES AND HEARING OUR SERMONS? Do we really think that Jesus Christ went to the Cross to make salvation the potentiality for everybody which then could lead to nobody, or do we think there was real purpose, sovereign purpose and and the fact that he went to the Cross and actually made salvation a reality for those who he chose before the foundations of the world? IMEANPEOPLE people will be on both sides there, but I think it’s okay to be like hey you on the other side, here, you’re actually wrong, you’re wrong, Yi forgot to mention earlier when I was t when I was going to go through like why the there’s that people perceive reformed people as men. At times your calvinist does mean. The third thing I was going to mention was: actually it is important to stand up for truth, and so there’s a wrong way to do that and there’s a right way to do that. I’ve got students who report to me. I work at university and I tell them all the time. I want you to contradict me. I want you to give me your thoughts. I want you to tell me when I’m wrong. There’s a respectful way to do that, and I and as like as your boss, I fully expect you to do that. I would be more offended if you never told me your thoughts and I think thi similar thing is applicable here: There’s a respectful way to descent, especially when s a certain belief or doctrine, disrespects, the character of God yeah. I agree I think Alvin said like a dog barks when his masters attack. So what kind? What kind of person would I be? If I didn’t make a noise when someone attacked the character of God, Yeah Yeah, I mean if we’re getting. If we’re getting more upset with people attacking our favorite football team than we are the character of God, then we have our priorities. We have our. We have a priorities wrong, Youh Kno. We really do you’ret you’re right, there’s a there’s a way to do it and you know people Ike Wel. What’s the way andit’s like well, generally speaking, the way to do it is to be gentle kind. Loving. You know to bear the fruits of the Holy Spirit as we have these conversations, but also know who you’ no your audience know who you’re talking to. I have a friend who we differ. You know, but he’s like a brother to me, and so we can actually go at it. Why can’t? I don’t do that with it? Virtually anybody else. It’s just it’s him and I can do that. You know yeah, but in the conversations about this should it be disconnected from the Furt of the spirit, love and patience. There’s a there’s, a there’s, a patient way to help people work through these things and to even ideologically be patient, like don’t throw every possible thing hapen to consider once help them to start at the foundation, which is kind of what we’re getting out today, start right character of God. Yes, chill out on the doctrines of grakes for a minute and focus on who, God is you know, yeah go slow, not ony, learn slow, but but teach teach teach slow, because you want people to really believe the saying right or you just trying to be right. Or are you just trying to win an argument, but or are you also trying to you know how people are Gue and you think wait? Are they trying to convince themselves that they even believe time Eog? It’s like hey ti, just chill out, take your time to everybody, learners, teachers and I love what you said about you know having your employees treat you that way that to that level, that’s that’s. I think that’s important for any leader is to not put themselves in a box to where then they’re not no longer a humble, humble learner, and it’s just TAT’s, just ridiculous, we’re all learning you know yeah. I tend to always think there’s a there’s, a respectful way to disagree with some way do to and that even that includes taking into account the time of when you say it so like there’s, you don’t have to some part of respectfully disagreeint may not be responding right away right or if on facebook it may be taking it to where it’s, not a public conversation, so yeah making someone feel embarrassed, or you know t that just adds fuel to the fire, a kindof right and then an those type of those type of formats. These things are almost too difficult to. Unless you’re going to write a book which that person wouldn’t read anyways, I mean Tho, it’s almost like hey. You want to call me or go get a cup of coffee, because I neen to write to respond to most of the questions to the reform view of God and the reform view of salvation. Onlines is very hunry. Let’s get back into talking about the doctrines of grace that we, the foundation that we get from the theology of God, I think you left off talking about election. Do you want to move into the irresistible grace of God, possibly yeah I mean, and when you get into irresistible grace, and I do prefer effectual calling, but I don’t mind your resistible grace if God is sovereign, if he is wholly if he is infinite, if he is eternal, if he is immutable, then those things would of course mean that that he is when he does actually choose, because he is sovereign and he has all these other these other. He is God, it’s more of a summons. You know than it is a request, it’s more of a it’s a command and it’s a command that can only be responded to when we are. We are born again, and he even has to do that. I mean, like you said: Salvation is of the Lord. What does that mean? Atd means everything, every single aspect that mean the effectual calling and, of course it’s going to be effectual. Whatever God wants to happen, is going to happen and and again that directly ties to the doctor of God. Hey, you don’t believe in the doctots of grace. No well. Do you believe that whatever God wants to happen is going to happen? Yes, of course, I do. Okay, you’re just describing sovereignty to God. So when God then says he chose before the foundations of the world, what does that mean? It actually means what it sets. You know, God chose doesn’t say you chose, says: God chose when before what the very foundations of the world I mean. That’s like third grade reading level, stuff, honestly it is, and then it’s like well is there anybody that God could have chosen before the foundations of the world. That in real time, could then not not respond. No, and God makes sure of that because he regenerates us. He gives us a new. Hearty re, creates us and so he’s got he es to do whatever he wants and prays the Lord that he doesn’t do that Y. I think also. It just connects to the faithful love of God overtime. So God was faithful and loving nenough to choose a people. His faithfulness to save us doesn’t stop at our decision. It continues through from he chose us to. He calls us he gives us the grace to to repent and belief through Regenera through her generation. He keeps US safe until the INS talk about preservation, seints and- and he glorifies us, he net his faithful love because of God’s faithfulness because of the love of God, because of who the scripture say, God is he’s faithful in every aspect of our salvation in loving us from election to the irresistible call of God. Yeah hate a highlight at it. Just remind me of webstere quote God’s election of us is the only thing that stands between us and our self destruction. He’s the Lord, an that’ Ilite his faithfulness and his love I mean it’s election is a good tame. So how? How Lord help us to have the discussions that are beautiful, theyre, beautiful trups without then being crinseworthy? You know, and people hear election and they’re almost like it’s like no N, N N. no election is actually a good thing, likea real good thing, because it does like I lote what you said highlight his faithfulness to to choose a people for himself yeah Jesfite. That’s that’s so much of the argument surrounding this is in the scriptures. This is a point of praise like no one is bringing up predestination or election and they’re like this is a doctron. We have to deal with Christians. It’s always thanks, be to God that a cinter like me, yeah, has been a Saton chapter, one first Peter One. It’s just glorious there. These guys are on fire their hearts. A re are exploding with atoration awesome. Well, you know also, I think, I’d even bring up a lot of the a lot of the misunderstandings of calvinism come from a misunderstanding of what Calvinis believe about God ind. So I don’t want to go into too many of these, but theyre. There’s, for instance, like people believe that calvinist think you can send all th. You want Ind. Your Salvation is secure, but Calvinis don’t believe that what your misunderstanding is that Calvinis, don’t believe you can send all you want calvimist believe that God is faithful, loving and sovereign enough to keep you from falling away Rigt, not that you can’t do everything you can to fall away, and God won’t Wont Act. What you’re doing by believing that is trying to fit a reformed understanding of salvation into a nonreformed understanding of the faithfulness and love of God? Yes, if you have- and I figure it- I was just T- I think- that’s a microcosm of many of the MIS misconceptions. People have yeah it s, it just M Oman. It’s a strow man argument because, first of it’s a misunderstanding and if it even is understood right, then it becomes extrawmaan argument because you’re arguing then with Paul. I mean Paul Paulem knew that people would say that didn’t he Romans Chapter Six, I believe were Sin Abounds Grace Abounde more. Well, then, should we should we go sin so Grace Abous, wor car? Certainly not these aren’t the questions that actual Christians, Christian Darn, actually asking these questions. They’re not saying, oh because God is never going to lose me and he’s going to preserve me and I’m going to persevere because of his preservance of me. Then I get to go, sit sit it. You know you need to be born again. ECAUSE was what you need to be ye, so it’s yeah. I mean IT’S A it’s! A total, if it’s even a Missi it actually might us to talk that was a misunderstanding, might be, might be being very generous because I don’t even think it’s a misunderstanding. I think it’s just a way to avoid an actual real conversation, because people, Christians, calbinistic or not, are not looking for ways or trying to just be like well, I can do whatever and God’s God’s going to. Forgive me tthere. This is not how they act a lot of times. I think it’s not it’s not people that are saying Hav, Oh Calvin is all say that you can, you know Sen all you want that everyone knows colvinist, wouldn’t say that what they’re trying to say is it’s the logical conclusion of Comoism and that that problem, I think, comes from a misunderstand, a deep misunderstanding and what you’re saying an intentional at times an intentional ignorance or an intentional twisting of the truth behind what they believe right that again, I’m fine with ignorance but intentional and wealful ignorance. I mean I’m, I I just don’t have time for it. I mean Il honestly. I don’t have time for it, because I’m busy- and also I just probably wouldn’t had time for it anyway- a willful, intentional ignorance and not and and not growing, in the faith in your knowledge of God over time is t e Sin. I believe Hebrew spor teaches that that it’s actually it’s the Sin of laziness. It’s not the sin of ignorance. It’s the son of laziness, because you are supposed to be learning these things. The author fever says. I wish I could tell you more about this, but you are too lazy to understand and that’s that’s a mark on the Church of the laziness is a sin, and laziness can be seen in our disinterest. Ind Doctrine are disinterested in learning about God. That’s a whole other conversation for another day. That’s good Ta, but ill be laziness. Distractions I mean just not not being you know just having other things that are more important in our lives, but you could be sleep, it could be TV shows it could be any a sort of extracrricular activities. It is a mark against our culture for sure, as the latest leaganeer thin on the State of theology in America keeps showing US yeah. Those are those are depressing at times. Yes, geology, yeah well, pastor hurt. Did you have any final thoughts just to wrap this up and kind of apply it for everyone? Listening Yeah I mean I guess I would just put a nice little bow on it by going back around it. Your kind of like your introduction, like hey we’ve, said a lot of things, and this is has been a conversation type format. If you can’t tell where we’re just we’re not trying to get perfect suscint answers were actually just ultimately having a conversation that you guys that would listen to this podcast get to listen into, but it is our goal that that you would understand that the doctrines of grace are not on an island by itself. It’s not some detached doctrine from all other doctors and scripture. It’s so not that it’s deat, it is directly flows from WHO, God is man who, God is, then what God has done? Look at what God has done through the lins of who got it and that’ll just help we’re not going to get it. You know, God is he’s Ruck an understand him fully. What’s the word, I’m missing here he’s incomprehensible. Okay, we can know right an things, so we’re not going to have a perfect knowledge by doing this, but we’re going to have a better understanding of of who, God is and then again our love and our adoration and our or or bigness God’s bigness will increase in our lives, and we we don’t want to make the mistake that is, is actually part of human nature. I believe which is to look at ourselves and then view God in light of who we are and how maybe we would do things and what we think is fair and what we think is unfair and no, we, let’s ‘s, let’s start with who God is before we get into really trying to figure out as Bavick says, the wonderful works of God and his works are wonderful, mysterious for sure. Wonderful, not how you would do it, not how I would do it raise the Lord. You know o thank you so much for joint. I feel like this is a really helpful conversation and encouraging to think through, for me, even just really just really great, and I really appreciate you being willing to take an hour of your time and and also it time before this to think they’re and prepare for this conversation. I really appreciate it ast appreciate. You have me on brother, it’s been fun or PJ as Jithat’s awesome. Well, also, friends, if you’re listening, I just thought I mentioned again now that it’s over you can go and leave review and it won’t be interrupting anything just go right now and leave Er ofview if you’re a fan, if you’re not a fan, this isn’t really for you. I do the FA E springns out there man! This is a good podcast. It’s good so go leave a review, and then let me know I’ll: send you this sticker with the Brooks podcast. Lo, though, and Interesto see what you guys have to say about it and hear some more of your thoughts but yeah grateful for this conversation and excited to talk to you guys again soon in the feature. Thank you for streaming. This episode of the Brooks podcast. Please leave a review of the podcast, with your honest thoghts and for more content. For me. Follow me on twitter at Mir. Brookster, that’s Mister, Brookster and Instagram at Brooks Sdot S, Ze see you in the next episode